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Untucked Episode 84

Click here to listen to our Coach’s Corner segment where we discuss all things gifting.

Click here for the full Untucked Episode 84. You can also listen to the full episode on Spotify, Apple, or Google podcasts.

Untucked Episode 84 – Gifting

Jeff Mastronardo: [00:00:00] What we got, Meg Coach’s Corner

Meghan Tait:. We’re gonna talk about gifting. Okay. And the transfer of wealth. So one of the more common planning scenarios we deal with is gifting both to people and charitable organizations. So what we wanted to discuss today is, um, how some of our clients choose to approach it. Some of the difficulties we often see in the conversation, and really the execution and maybe how we think some of those, um, difficulties or concerns can be lessened or alleviated.

Okay, so the reason this kind of came up is I recently met with a client who has more than enough money to be able to significantly and impactfully gift to family members, gift to organizations she’s passionate about, and she’s struggling with it. She’s struggling with it because she wants to. She wants to kind of [00:01:00] dictate how the money is used once it’s gifted.

She wants it to be, she uses the word responsibly. She doesn’t want it spent frivolously, and she’s struggling with. You know, kind of getting out of her own way, I guess, for, for lack of a better word, cuz it’s, it’s not at all a concern from a financial standpoint whether or not she can afford to do it.

But she is the daughter of, you know, great depression parents and has accumulated a ton of wealth, but just can’t really see through the gifting. Execution

Jeff Mastronardo: and it’s either gift with no restrictions or don’t

Meghan Tait: gift. That’s how we see it. Yeah, I mean the, the adding the restrictions just, we get to this place where people don’t do anything.

They keep talking about wanting to do it, but then they actually don’t do it.

Jeff Mastronardo: So you and I were talking about this and, um, the only solution I could think of, which I don’t think is a viable solution, right? If grandmom says to, to grandkid, I’m gonna gift you X amount of [00:02:00] money, uh, but I want you to use it responsibly and do this with it.

That’s not gonna work. So if the, the only other way I can think of is, is grandma is a part of those purchases. Like, Hey grandma, I’m gonna use your gift to buy a car. Well, grandma doesn’t want Johnny to go out and get a Corvette. Well then, okay, Johnny, I’ll go with you, like do some car research and I’m gonna go with you to the store and I’m gonna write the check.

That way she can control, you’re gonna get like a Kia instead of a Mercedes, but like, what, what, what grandparent? Who’s gonna do that? Right. Who, who’s gonna be involved in all of those Right. Decisions and, and just if you have enough money and your advisor tells you you do just gift or don’t. Yeah. Right.

If you feel like it’s gonna lead them to be irresponsible, then don’t. And I guess maybe now that I’m like thinking out loud as I talk, like that’s a real problem because if they don’t gift, then they’re gonna leave [00:03:00] more to the kids. And if you think they’re gonna be irresponsible when you give ’em 17 grand, well isn’t that more frustrating that they’re gonna be super responsible when you’re dead and you give them two and a half million, but I guess you’re dead, so who cares?

Yeah. I just won’t gift and then I’ll die and I won’t know what they did with it.

Meghan Tait: Yeah. Um. I, I, I, I don’t have, that’s it.

Jeff Mastronardo: Now I’m putting myself in their, in, like their spot. Like yeah, that’s a toughie. I guess I’d rather just give it to them and then be disappointed that they’re using it for whatever, but at least I, I, I was able to help them in some form or fashion while I was alive and watched him blow it on stupid

Meghan Tait: stuff.

I may be like oversimplifying it, but if it’s a genuine concern, having that conversation with the recipient of the gift. Like, Hey, I have an opportunity to help and I, I would like to see this money used thoughtfully or responsibly by whatever measure, or even if it’s just saying [00:04:00] those words like, aren’t most people like I.

Gonna be considerate of that. Maybe I’m giving too many people the benefit of the doubt, but like, I don’t know. In this case, like she’s talking about her grandchildren who are 30 years old, have kids of their own, like very likely the use is gonna be. You know, summer activities or paying the daycare bill.

Like I know that there are scenarios where the money is used incredibly irresponsibly. I’m not suggesting that it’s perfect all the time, but I guess in my mind, like you say how you feel to the person who’s gonna receive the gift and then you hope for the best.

Mike Traynor: Yeah, and I think, you know, Jeff, your, your example of the car is probably a little bit impractical to think grandmom’s going to the.

You know, Toyota dealer or whatever. But if it’s something like a down payment on a house, right, that’s specifically a check written that that’s part of that transaction, [00:05:00] it’s probably super helpful to the, to the kid or kids. Um, and that’s a great way to help somebody who’s younger, who otherwise maybe couldn’t afford to, to buy a house.

Um, Just writing a check though and giving, just giving money cuz you’d rather give it to ’em while you’re still alive. And the more substantial that check is, obviously the more problematic it it could be because it’s, um, at that point it might be spent fri frivolously or whatever. I don’t know. Um, to me I feel like the gifting thing, the smaller, the smaller gifts to me are.

Way more, way less should be, way less of an issue. I think when it comes to it, it’s really the encouraging, or not, maybe that’s not the right word, but, um, um, helping create potentially a situation where somebody just plays video games all day because they don’t have to get a job now [00:06:00] that there’s a lot of money come in their way or has come their way.

And maybe that leads into the other part of our conversation, which is, which is the, um, Where are we gonna talk about like the family planning, the family planning aspect, where there is a substantial inheritance, um, that may or may, may not be known about, and is it good or bad to talk about that as a family prior to that happening?

And yeah. What are the pitfalls there?

Jeff Mastronardo: Yeah, I’m a, I’m a big fan of having family generational planning discussions, right? Like, Mom and dad have a couple million bucks. They live very modestly. They have two kids. Those kids are gonna inherit two, 3 million bucks each. Um, I think, yeah, I, I think it’s, it’s in everyone’s best interest to have that conversation with, you know, son one and daughter one.

Like, look, we [00:07:00] we’re not going to go through our money. You’re gonna get $2 million at least when we die. Because I think that can help them now start to maybe modify their planning. Like maybe you don’t have to save as much in your 401k, or maybe you don’t have to struggle the way you’re struggling now because there is going to be an inheritance.

And we always tell people when we do our planning for people in their sixties, like you can’t bank on the inheritance. But I think that’s different. I think that that other generation didn’t have as much wealth as this generation does. So it’s like our clients will have like a million or 2 million bucks and they’re kind of on the cusp of being able to, to live comfortably.

And they may get an inheritance from mom for 400 grand, which can really kind of changed their life. Um, and we tell ’em, you can’t, you can’t bank on that. I’m talking about a bigger wealth transfer, um, to young, to a younger generation. I think it’s. It the, I think the conversation absolutely should be had.

Meghan Tait: Well, and, and the conversation. Maybe that’s what [00:08:00] we as Advi advisors can encourage to make what we were fir first talking about the gifting discussion easier, right? Like if there’s this open line of communication and mom and dad can say, Hey, you know, we don’t live your scenario. We don’t need our, a ton of our money.

We live very modestly. There’s going to be an inheritance. Well, maybe the kids are then raising their hands and saying, Like we need help with college funding in five years, so I don’t wanna wait 15 more for you to die. How about you contribute to your grandchild’s college education? Like maybe it allows for more, more opportunity to help while mom and dad are still here.

Cuz I keep coming back to that like, Wouldn’t you want to see if you could, wouldn’t you want to see your money positively benefiting your family? And to me, that opportunity should [00:09:00] outweigh maybe the one-off frivolous expense or the one vacation that you wouldn’t have sanctioned or you know, the upgraded car purchase.

Like to me, that opportunity. Maybe because we’ve now created that generational approach to the discussion, um, maybe it encourages more people to do it because I do believe a lot of the concern we talk about people having is a generational thing. The pe, the age of the, the demographic of the clients we see who can’t get over the hump are.

Like, I don’t think that’s going to be a perpetuated issue we deal with. Agree. I agree on. Does that make sense? Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. So maybe for now, the way that we can help again, like execute on these like thoughts or ideas is by having the rest of the family like actively participate in the conversation.

Jeff Mastronardo: I mean, I’ve, [00:10:00] there’s been many circumstances that I’ve personally been a part of where we’ve had those conversations. And it’s impactful when you, when you’re talking to mom and her boys and mom lives on her social security and a pension and has $400,000 in a Roth IRA and she’s 80 years old. Well, that Roth IRA shouldn’t be invested for the 80 year old.

Right. She’s never gonna use it. And I’ve, we’ve, we’ve had this conversation with clients. Yeah, let’s invest that 100% stocks for the next 10 years that you’re gonna be alive cuz it’s just. It’s going to grow more and it’s gonna be a bigger impact for these kids. Like that’s kids’ money. I’ve, I’ve said that a million times.

This is basically your kids’ money, so let’s invest it for them kids. Are you okay with that? And they’re always like, yes, let’s do that. Of course. Yeah. That’s why I just think it needs to be a bigger conversation. Um,

Meghan Tait: um, yeah, but my, I guess the issue I see most is that, The mom and dad [00:11:00] just don’t, they can’t wrap their brains or grasp the amount of wealth they have, right?

There’s the constant like, well, what if? What if, what if? And I can think of multiple scenarios where like, there isn’t a what if there isn’t a what if That could be put in front of me that I would. That would even concern me, right? So it it, it’s without concern that we can unequivocally say, give gift, invest for the kids and still doesn’t happen because

Jeff Mastronardo: those what ifs are never going to be something that’s just going to make you go.

Bankrupt. I mean, unless you were doing something really crazy stupid with your money. Right. But like, even like a concern that, like Mike brought up a few, a few months ago, like the, the, um, SVB debacle. Mm-hmm. And you know, your bank accounts and your money markets going below $1 share. Like, okay, but then that will get corrected and we’ll figure it out.

Right. The only [00:12:00] thing that’s like, the only thing that could happen that is a zombie apocalypse. So we, but we’re not, we’re not preparing for that. Right. Yeah. It’s, I think I agree with you, Meg. I think it’s generational. I think it will go away. I think the 60, the 55 to 60 year olds that we’re dealing with now Yeah.

Won’t have as big of a hangup when they’re 80. Yeah. I think they’ll get it unless they start going senile and like start losing their minds. Um, but that’s, it’s, it’s something that I think people should be talking about with mom and dad and with each other about their family’s wealth so that we can just be better at what we do.

Meghan Tait: Yeah, and, and I mean, we can only take it so far, right? We can only help, we can only help move the conversation. We can only give the ideas, but I mean, without someone willing to, to execute, it’s, it’s just a lot of talk. And I guess that’s where my frustration lies. There’s a lot of talk with certain situations recently for me, [00:13:00] and they seem like no-brainers and I don’t know how to.

Push anymore.

Jeff Mastronardo: Yeah. And I feel like there has definitely been more people that are willing to have that conversation. I feel like, yeah, let’s, 10, 15 years ago when I would say to someone, are you willing to like, you know, share some of this information with your kids and, and bring your kids in so they can understand the planet was like, no, I don’t want my kids to know how much money I have.

I, I feel like recently there’s been more acceptance of that. That’s true. I agree with

Mike Traynor: that. Mm-hmm. There is a threshold that just to before we leave this, yeah. Um, I feel like there’s a threshold of wealth at which it starts to be the, the, the issues become much more complicated. So talking about a few million bucks or right.

Five or 10 million. But when you’re talking about 5,000, you know, lots and lots of, of, of assets, you know, at that point you have real concerns about. Okay. Family planning. Our kids know that they’re inheriting just sure they don’t have [00:14:00] ever have to work. Their kids don’t have to work. How are we gonna get them to work?

How are we gonna create a work ethic in our, in our, their, our kids and their kids? And that, that kind of thing. So,

Jeff Mastronardo: um, I can’t help you with that. Michael. Yeah. What does Jay-Z say?

Meghan Tait: No money, no problem.

Jeff Mastronardo: Was that Jay-Z? No. Where’s that? Biggie? I think it was, I think it was, uh, uh, puffy, actually. Puffy and Mace.

Yeah, you might be right. I think Biggie was dead when that came out. His track was, uh, was added afterlife. Mm.

Meghan Tait: Should have consulted with the resident rap connoisseur. All right, well, no answers were found through that.

Jeff Mastronardo: Sorry.

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Untucked Episode 83

Click here to listen to our Coaches Corner segment where we discuss what different generations look for in financial advisors

Click here for the full Untucked Episode 83. You can also listen to the full episode on Spotify, Apple, or Google Podcasts.

Episode 83 What Different Generations Value

Meghan Tait: [00:00:00] So today we are going to talk about a tweet we came across from Samantha Russell. Samantha, um, tweeted a graphic that, uh, was from a white paper recently published by Fidelity. The white paper covered a lot of ground, but what we wanna focus on today is the differences in serving different generations, specifically generation Y and generation Z compared to boomers.

Um, the graphic itself, kind of I’ll say categorized the types of things those groups of people may or may not be looking for in a financial advisor. So the, I’ll read Samantha’s tweet. Her tweet said that this new generation does not want a financial advisor. They want a life coach with a side of financial planning and investment advice.

And then the graphic they shared indicates that younger generations value holistic wealth. Planning, um, which they’ve defined [00:01:00] by certain categories helping you achieve overall life goals, peace of mind, and financial planning. And then there’s the investment or portfolio management component, which the point they’re trying to make is that compared to boomers who prefer a advisor who does investment in portfolio management, younger generations are in theory looking for, I’ll say more.

Or a different level of se different

Jeff Mastronardo: type of service. I agree with that a hundred percent. Um, where I didn’t necessarily agree with it, but I didn’t do a survey like Fidelity, is that this next generation is ranking, investment and portfolio management as their kind of, their number one priority based upon the percentages in this tweet.

Right? Right. Managing the money was 32%. Mm-hmm. Achieving goals was 29% or 28%. Yeah. So it’s still, and I just don’t agree with that.

Meghan Tait: Like you don’t agree with what she took from it?

Jeff Mastronardo: Yes. Yeah. [00:02:00] Uh, and, and just from my experience, like personally, I focus more on the financial planning stuff with my advisor and I care way more about the financial planning stuff than I do about in the investment management.

And maybe that’s a function of. My understanding of investment management. Sure. And I’m 45 and I don’t even care to look at this stuff for another 20 years. I just wanna let it go, let it grow, be as aggressive as possible. I don’t care what funds you use. And I, and just maybe cuz I know a little bit about it Sure.

But I would have to guess, and you deal with more of the younger demographic than I do, um, but it seems like all the financial planning stuff is a greater concern to them. Than like the timing of what we’re gonna buy and are we moving in and out of, of Bitcoin or should we, you know, um, eliminate an international holding.

It’s more about how do we pay for college? How much should I save? Do I [00:03:00] have enough to retire? Um, should I buy or lease this car? Like, I think I would have to guess it’s more for, for that demographic. It’s more about those other questions I just mentioned rather than investment management.

Meghan Tait: Yeah, I, I think that’s fair to say, although I think a lot of those things are not, and, and maybe some of them are, but a lot of that stuff isn’t maybe things people are thinking about.

So what I mean by that is often what’s gets people in the door is. I don’t understand what to do with my 401k, or I inherited a brokerage account from so-and-so, what do I do with it? So I think the financial planning, while it’s critically important, and people through processes learn that they should be asking certain questions.

A lot of the times, in my experience at least, it’s not typically what gets them engaged with an advisor. There’s often. An investment related question or concern or their mind that leads them here, [00:04:00] and then the discussion broadens and they realize, oh, shit. I have a lot of other questions in a lot of other areas.

But that’s maybe my, and I mean, I’m agreeing with you, Jeff, like there’s a lot of other things that they think about and are worried about, but oftentimes the initial concern as to why they engage with a professional is investment related. You’re dead right.

Jeff Mastronardo: You’re dead Right. Absolutely. That initial.

It’s, I got an inheritance. Yeah. Uh, we wanna sell a house. What do we do with the money? Yeah. I’m leaving this company, what do I do with my old 401k? And then when you have the discussion, well, yeah, we do manage money. That’s kind of a, a small part of what we do. Let me tell you what else we do. And it’s like, oh my God.

You’re right. Yeah. There are a lot of decisions I have to make and I think they do grow into understanding. It’s more about the financial planning and the investment stuff is easy. Totally.

Mike Traynor: Yeah. I think I, I guess my, I would say it’s hard to, when you, when you say to somebody, Investment or portfolio management, financial planning, other [00:05:00] categories.

It’s hard to know how, what they think that means cuz it’s just a phrase. Mm-hmm. So for example, I would, I would say the, they’re saying the boomers here and they value the, the thing they value the most is investment and portfolio management. And Jeff, you’re saying that’s probably too high relative to some other stuff and probably it is, but I.

I, I would say that a lot of people probably think that all of the things around the money, their money withdrawing money when and where, from my ira, from my, from where, like that part of it in their minds probably is investment management, portfolio management. It’s not just the stock picking or fund picking or whatever.

So I feel like that’s, that makes sense to me as to why that would be basically half. 50% of the, of the, this poll was, was saying that those, the boomers value that, um, to that extent. Cause I think that that’s such a [00:06:00] large piece of what you’re doing with them at that stage of, of their lives is planning for this stuff and executing on it.

Not just the in actually investing in it, but figuring out. Um, how they’re gonna pay for things like where it comes from and that sort of thing. That’s all.

Meghan Tait: Which is the opposite for a younger person. Yeah. Right. Those types of questions aren’t even on their mind yet. Which would make sense why they would maybe gravitate in this if they have to pick among these, you know, things they’re looking for.

Why you might gravitate towards, oh, certainly I want peace of mind, or mm-hmm. I want to build a financial plan cuz I have. 50 grand in my 401k. Like it, it’s just, it’s not that it’s unimportant, but it’s not as consequential. I didn’t really think about it like that, if that

Mike Traynor: makes sense. And peace of mind is a bad phrase.

I feel like in this poll it should be, it should be rephrased to something like confidence in my professionals that are, that I’m working with. Like, that’s [00:07:00] like how important is that for you? And that’s, that should be. I mean, that should be probably the same for both groups, I would say. But, um, peace of mind is kind of a weird phrase.

Jeff Mastronardo: When the Boomer demographic comes to see us, it’s 50 50 to me, 50% of them come in and they’re like, really? Like their main priority is investments and what’s your philosophy and what’s your, what’s like, how do you manage money and what do you charge on that money? And the other half are, we need a plan.

Mm-hmm. And maybe even til it’s a little bit more to the, to the latter where more people come in, we, we just, we need a plan. Yeah. Or we’re really

Mike Traynor: disorganized and we need some help with all that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But there,

Jeff Mastronardo: there’s the other half I feel like, that come in and it’s all about the money. And because they’re so conditioned, because they’re the older demographic, they’re conditioned to, that was the only value proposition people had was 1% to manage your money.

And thankfully the industry has. [00:08:00] At least some of the industry has shifted to, that’s, again, that’s the easy piece. Like it’s not difficult to manage money. It’s not super easy, but there’s so many more complexities with your plan that should be addressed and should be perfected and should be optimized.

Um, and I think that, that, that’s not in the, in the view of a lot of the boomers that we see. Sure.

Meghan Tait: I have a little bit of like, beef with, maybe that’s not the right word. The way she says like, they want a life coach. Like I know that the things that we talk through with people are a lot, there’s a lot, right?

There’s a huge, um, you know, there’s variety. There’s a huge, what’s the word I’m thinking of? Like, Just the types of things that we talk with people like life coach, right? It’s

Mike Traynor: not like, should I take this job or that job? Like walk me through this. Like right. That’s not right.

Meghan Tait: I, I guess I [00:09:00] struggle with like, and I mean there are elements of a lot of decisions obviously that impact finances.

I understand that, but I guess I kind of feel like life coach is too big of an umbrella. For financial planners to like be

Jeff Mastronardo: under. I think it falls under what we do though, you know, and people bitch about what we charge. Some people, you know, and like, you know, they hate the a u m model and all that crap, but it’s not, I mean, I have story after story of client that has called and said, I’m gonna take, you know, I was offered a position at this, at this other job.

It’s 30 grand less, but. I think I’m like gonna be much happier there. Like, what do you think I should, that doesn’t fall under like my job description, but there is money involved. Yeah. And we know, I mean, a lot of, of, [00:10:00] of the information around this person or this couple, I mean, how many conversations are we in?

How many meetings are. I haven’t even talked to you about this yet, Jan, or I haven’t even talked to you about this yet, Bob. Yeah. And there’s tissues, and there’s tears and there’s like, and there’s arguments and there’s fights. Like we’re in the middle of a lot of it. Yeah. And people that don’t understand what we do, don’t get it.

They don’t understand. There’s investment management, there’s financial planning, there’s emotional coaching, there’s handholding, there’s, you know, we’re trusted advisors for big, big decisions that they have to make. And if it’s not, Health related. They like, they don’t come to us with their health cause they know we can’t handle that.

Yeah. But there’s a lot of other tax like, and they lean on their accountants for a lot of this stuff too. But we know more than the accountants. We know more like the accountants don’t know how much money they have. They get 10 90 nines. They get tax documents. They have no idea. We’re talking about their kids and their grandkids and it’s, they’re dogs.

Like it’s crazy.

Meghan Tait: No, you’re right. I [00:11:00] mean I’m like thinking about how I walk back, what I said, cause you’re right.

Jeff Mastronardo: We end up being life coaches as as much as you may not want to admit it. Maybe I just hate the phrase, it’s a stupid phrase. It’s a stupid phrase, but we’re like conci for all of our clients, dude.

Like they look at us as these trusted advisors. That isn’t just about the money. A lot of the stuff comes down to money. Yeah. Right. And we know like that’s what most people fight about, right? It’s. It’s sex, it’s money, it’s relationships, and we’re at the center of that. Um, I kind of enjoy that part of our job.

I, I really do appreciate, and it’s well documented that like when people say, Hey, I want to pick your brain, like it makes you, it, it, it puffs you up. It makes you feel good about yourself, that people really trust you and want your opinion on something. Um, But when you know a lot about someone’s life, yeah, I mean you’re [00:12:00] the person they’re gonna go to and ask.

So life coach is a stupid term, but that kind of coaching is absolutely what we do. Yeah, you’re right. And we get paid for it and we deserve it. And you know, if you don’t want to do that, then fine. Go pay a CFP for $150 an hour to ask them if you should do a Roth conversion. Like, right. Or if I can, if I can afford to take this other job and they’ll run a freaking model for you in an hour or two, and it means absolutely nothing.

Meghan Tait: Has there ever been a podcast where you haven’t said Roth conversion on it at least

Jeff Mastronardo: once. If I didn’t say Roth conversion, I said social security planning. Yeah.

Uh, I think it’s an interesting topic to see what people value. Um, I think it’s a good, um, survey because if, if it’s seen, it gets people starting to think about, all right, maybe this isn’t just all about investment [00:13:00] management, like what else is out there? Yeah.

Meghan Tait: Okay.

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Untucked Episode 82

EPISODE 82: EMPATHY AND WHY IT’S IMPORTANT DURING DIFFICULT COVERSATIONS

Click here to listen to our Coaches Corner segment where we discuss empathy and it’s importance in our regular conversation with clients

Click here for the full Untucked Episode 82. You can also listen to the full episode on Spotify, Apple, or Google Podcasts.

Ep 82 Empathy

Meghan Tait: [00:00:00] So recently we were having a discussion about the communication style and our, our, um, the way we engage with our clients. And what we wanted to talk about today is, um, maybe as practitioners being a bit more empathetic to people who don’t live. In our world every day, and who maybe don’t have the same awareness, the same level of expertise, of course.

Um, but as people present concerns or worries about the world, about particular events that maybe we need to do a better job or just more of a conscious, I’ll say, job of how we communicate to them. Is that fair? Sure.

Mike Traynor: Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, starting with maybe the, the Silicon Valley, Uh, issue and some of the other banks and the, the headlines over the past few weeks with that, you know, you get a lot of people that hear about it, maybe don’t understand how it happened and what’s going on, what the fallout will be, and there’s a lot of [00:01:00] concern.

Um, bank failures, is my money safe, you know, all those sorts of things. And then, um, you know, an article in the journal that’s talking about, say, Charles Schwab’s financial condition and. Potential, you know, issues inside that company. Um, you know, and I think, I guess, I guess I’m, I think about it in the sense that, um, our standard MO has always just been, Hey, listen, there’s always a headline series of headlines.

It could be political, economic, you know, whatever, um, that is new and scary and might make people think that, you know, that. We’re heading into like the worst of times or let’s say, and, and we’re always like, okay, this is, you know, always the case where, you know, you can just go back through any year or series of years and point to the [00:02:00] same kinds of emotions and feelings that, that are scary.

Um, and, and I guess I brought up the, the concept of, you know, maybe we’re a little too, we can be at times a little too kind of. Trotting out the same party line, which is just, hey, the long term, you know, things are, things are growing. Markets go up over the long term. You have to accept the volatility as as it comes.

You don’t know, uh, no way to predict blah, blah, blah, all that. And you, we’ve prepared for down times. We’re in a 15 ish month bear market, which, um, I, and I would say, I guess, Might be starting to feel to a lot of people, like it’s a little longer than they’re getting comfortable. That they’re, they’re comfortable enduring and wondering if that’s, we’re just at the beginning of it.

And who knows, maybe we are, maybe we are. And I just think that sometimes maybe there’s a, um, you know, [00:03:00] we talk to clients all day, all week and give the same message and from their perspective. There just might be a different tack to take at times to sort of acknowledge that. Yeah. I mean, the, this is, this is, to me, I always, I, I like to say, yeah, it’s different.

Every single time is different. The circumstances that are going on in the world right now are absolutely different. They never happened before, specifically this way. So like you acknowledge that. Um, but so long as when we talk about being optimistic as advisors and only wanting to work with really, frankly, optimistic clients.

Cause if somebody’s a dor like we talked about, I guess last time, it becomes untenable and, and, and very, very, uh, exhausting to work with. And over time, that’s probably not gonna be a long relationship if, if. Do not let go of that [00:04:00] mindset, I would say. Um, but having said that, you, you gotta, you gotta tread the line of it’s, it’s okay to be concerned.

It’s okay to be worried and fearful and ask questions and look for assurances. And that’s, I think we talked about the end of the day, what we’re, one of our main jobs is, is just to be, just to reassure and listen and acknowledge. Um, and not brush aside the fear and the concern and not be like, Hey, what are you worried about over 10 years from now?

It’s gonna, you know, that kind of thing. And because in the day, in the moment, in the, um, in the week to week, it’s stressful. Could be very stressful for people when they see their, um, you know, their accounts worthless than they were even a year and a half ago, so. Mm-hmm. What do you got, Jeff? I

Jeff Mastronardo: think it’s important to distinguish between when you say this time is different, cause I.

I don’t really subscribe to that language. I agree that this time is different. Meaning, um, a bank [00:05:00] failure versus a pandemic versus whatever other apocalypse has caused the market to go down, right? Mortgage failures and all that crap, like, again, like the cause of the economic downturn is going to be d.

But that doesn’t mean the result’s going to be different. And when I think people say this time is different, they mean I believe the client means the investor means this time is different. So it’s going to lead to, to a different result, a worse result like this may never come back and I don’t subscribe to that.

I do subscribe to what’s causing it is different, but it’s not going to lead to a different result. And I think it’s just a matter. Yeah, we have to be empathetic with people when they come in and they’re, um, I can think of a client, um, in 2020 this time is different. We have Trump trying to get reelected.

We have the pandemic we have and just rattled off four things and worried and concerned, and we have to say to that person. [00:06:00] I know, man, it is scary, I guess is really scary. But what we have to try to do as humans and investors and financial planners is. All right, but are we exposed to anything? Are we over concentrated somewhere?

Which if things do go and, and play out the way that you think they’re gonna play out in the world’s gonna go, come to an end, or mortgages are gonna, you know, banks are gonna fail, are you gonna lose all of your money? Most likely, no. That’s not gonna be the case. Most likely the banking industry. Will will work itself out.

Most likely the market will work itself out. Most likely companies will still continue to learn how to earn profits. So yes, over, and I know you don’t want to hear this Mike, but over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years, you will recover. You will be better off. The world will figure it out. We just have to make sure we have a plan to get through the really scary time that we’re in now, and we just have to do that better.

We have to be very empathetic when we do that because [00:07:00] we might have 15 conversations a day. Saying the same thing to 15 different people, but it’s the first time that person heard it, and we have to sound and really genuinely feel that empathy for them.

Meghan Tait: I, I agree. I mean, I think maybe I’m somewhere in the middle because like, I think sometimes it’s just a hearing them, sometimes it’s just agreeing with them if you feel the same, you know, concern or the same level of anxiety or the same.

Worry sometimes that’s just it. It’s not, but it’s not, and it’s just, yes. And we can sit in this, we can agree that we’ve done all of the planning we can. We can agree that there’s a lot of this that is way beyond any of our individual control, but sometimes it’s just like sometimes when people want to complain or vent or, or, or express concern, they just want somebody to be like, I [00:08:00] agree.

Yeah. Or I hear you. And I, I think, and I, I shouldn’t speak for everyone. I know I am very quick to want to fix it or offer a solution or say, but look this or see that, or, here’s a chart for that. And, and sometimes that’s being dismissive of their feelings because even though I, I’m hearing them, I don’t know exactly how they’re feeling.

I mean, nobody articulates their feelings, precise. So I think there’s, there’s after 15 months of having these conversations and, you know, after dealing with different variables, with different clients in different situations, like sometimes just sitting in it and like reminding yourself, reminding that person that we’re, we’re here together and, you know, we might not have everything figured out, but like, today, this is what we’re gonna talk through, or this is what we’re gonna try.

Make ourselves feel a little bit better about, and it, it might not be a solution and [00:09:00] they might not leave feeling like great, but if they feel, you know, a little bit better, I feel like sometimes that’s, that’s

Jeff Mastronardo: enough. I’m just worried that, and I like your approach where it’s like, I hear you, I feel you. I mean, it’s scary.

I’m scared as well. Um, and just hearing them out, agreeing with them, all right, we’re gonna use our cash that we set aside for the next. My fear is that they walk outta here and they say, and I’m not saying you’re a bad advisor for it. Sure. Cause I think you’re a good advisor for it. And their friend says, well, what did she recommend that you do?

Oh, well, she didn’t recommend I do anything. In fact. Yeah. Now that you, now that you mentioned it, Sally, Megan didn’t even offer anything that we should do. Well, you should be doing something when you know, and the reason why you didn’t offer anything is cause she shouldn’t do anything. Right. But people perceive.

The advisors that aren’t making a recommendation as not smart as not listening to them, whereas the opposite [00:10:00] advisor who goes, all right, so you’re right Sally, I hear you. This is what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna sit in cash for the next six months. I’m gonna check my volatility charts and I’m going to dollar cost average back in like that person’s a total fricking moron.

Yeah. But they sound like geniuses to the masses because it sounds super smart. Yeah. And you sound like an idiot because you’re doing the right thing. And that’s what, that’s what bothers me about it. And that maybe has nothing to do with the empathy part of it. Doing the right thing is hard. Yeah. Giving the right advice is hard across, across the map, no matter what the advice is.

Friend says, how’s my hair look? And it looks terrible. The right advice is, your hair looks terrible, man. You should wear a hat for the next like four months until it grows back.

Mike Traynor: But given it’s tough, I think you’re saying something like, I think giving the right answer is so important and honest and the right answer.

When somebody says, Hey, they walk in and they’ll say like, I really think we’re, we’re gonna see a massive correction in the next six months. What do you. [00:11:00] Right. The right answer is not. Yeah, I agree with you, bill. Right. Things are, you know, let’s, let’s tick off the factors that are gonna cause this. The right answer is, I have no idea.

Right. And neither does anyone else You have an opinion, which is great. I don’t share your opinion because I don’t have an opinion. Right. I have, we have a, again, we have a plan to deal with whatever happens and having an opinion might be fun to talk about at the barbecue. It doesn’t apply, doesn’t and shouldn’t apply to what you do in, in, on a day-to-day basis.

But aren’t

Jeff Mastronardo: you supposed to be empathetic there? I hear you Bill. Like why do you think we’re gonna experience a, a big correction in the next 10 months? He ticks off all of his factors. Okay. Yeah. Those are really scary things, man. What do you think we should do about that bill? And if Bill says, I think we should go to cash, that’s when we have to, I guess, stop being empathetic, right?

Or try to be empathetic and say, well, how about we try this other. I don’t think we do nothing.

Meghan Tait: Empathy is not, is not an excuse to be a doormat. It’s not an [00:12:00] excuse to take, take orders from people who have hired us to do a service or to provide a job, like to do a job for them. So I don’t wanna, I don’t think we need, we shouldn’t mistake empathy for improper action.

I’m simply saying that like, if someone expresses feelings, we can’t dismiss those feelings by saying, oh. Here is the solution. Sometimes just letting them feel and articulate those feelings is what people need. If we’re getting to the point where action is on the table, well then yes, we absolutely have to do our jobs.

That’s why we’re in the role that we’re in. Yeah, but I interpreted our conversation as more just instead of always jumping to the, we know things will get better because that’s all we. It’s like it’s shitty right now, and we’re allowed to agree that it’s shitty. And if it’s shitty for you, Sally, for different reasons than you, Jeff, then you, Mike than me, Megan, like, okay.

I, I guess I, I don’t feel like [00:13:00] that necessarily means we then have to follow suit with exactly what they think should be done right, or what their buddy thinks should be done. It’s not an excuse for us not to do our jobs. It’s simply a layer of. I, I don’t know. To me it’s like just a, a breath instead of always trying to fix something.

Just letting it lie, even if it’s momentarily.

Jeff Mastronardo: Yeah. And is it okay to say to someone, cause I know I do it like, yeah man, this is scary. It’s crazy. And I’m like, I have no idea when this is gonna get better. Like, I have no idea how long it’s gonna take, and maybe this is what I shouldn’t be doing. But I also, I always say like, but I just know it.

Like, I know it will if the money market breaks the buck and if TD Bank and Wells Fargo Bank and all these other banks go out of business, like there will be a solution at the end. It will be really horrible and crappy for God knows how long. But all we can do is look back historically and say, okay, in, in the worst of times, like, [00:14:00] how long has it been really bad?

And then what did it look like coming out of that? I don’t know. How can you not feel better after that conversation? All right. Hey, I guess because if you’re a do. Right. It never gets better. It never gets it,

Mike Traynor: it it, it never gets better. Yeah. And then the other perspective on it is that reminding people that in the past 10 years or so, where, where we’ve been in a, like unprecedented bull market, right.

Any dip or any pullback has been so short-lived that like historically, it’s like incredibly unusual. So, The confidence that people had that any dip was gonna just automatically be short. Like, like even Covid. That was,

Jeff Mastronardo: yeah. Uh, 20 18, 6 months. 2018 was December. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So 2018 was a down year, and it was just December.

Mm-hmm.

Mike Traynor: So there have been, so now we’re in an actual normal recovery, which is, we’re 15 months in, which hasn’t been the case for a long time. [00:15:00] And, um, some of ’em I was looking at. 2,700 days it took to get back. That was in the late seventies. That was like the seventies miserable, high inflation. Yeah. Uh, time.

Did you say seventies or 2023? Yeah. Right. No, but, but I mean, I think that’s the thing. Like people have to be reminded that this is normal. The 15 month like down market is not. Unusual when you’re having a, a pullback. Yeah. It’s just not, and it, it could be another 15 months. I don’t know. Um, anyway, just to wrap, I maybe to wrap up, I think we, we had this conversation the other day and Yeah.

I, I think I was feeling like sometimes, uh, we, we, we might, yeah. You know, our message maybe can be massaged a little bit to be, we’re using the word empathy, and I think that’s as close as we can get to what I’m, I’m talking about, um, an acknowledgement that. Um, that this is, that this is like scary [00:16:00] times for a lot of people and especially the people that are glued to the TV or on, on social media and just following, um, a storyline and getting confirmation bias every day, all day long about what they already believe.

And, and so that just makes it harder. We can’t

Jeff Mastronardo: just say, don’t worry about it. 10 years from now, you’re gonna have way more money. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn’t, that’s not gonna make anyone feel better tomorrow.

Meghan Tait: But I also think, like, to wrap up the wrap up, the wrap up, like giving advice is hard. Yeah. Giving good advice is hard, and dealing with human emotion is really, really difficult.

Jeff Mastronardo: I don’t think people understand that part of our job. I, I take it and take it for granted and take it away for granite,

Meghan Tait: and I’m not looking for pity, like for the role that we play. Not at all. It’s just when things are, Things are good. When things aren’t, everything changes. Yeah. And by things I mean, obviously the market and people’s money.

Um, and there’s, [00:17:00] it’s just difficult.